Season 3 | White Picket Fences

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Season ThreeRace, class, identity, privilege. These are topics and concepts that divide us, but what if we could start talking about them? Through conversation and stories that follow the themes of my book, White Picket Fences: Turning toward Love in a World Divided by Privilege, we are going to explore these hard topics in order to move together towards healing.

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healing begins when love is our home

S3 E20 | When Love Is Our Home, Healing Begins

Do we want to get well? Within the reality of the harm of privilege and ongoing division, Amy Julia concludes this season of the podcast by examining how healing begins when love is our home. She provides solutions of hope and reconciliation that begin and end with, and flow from, the abundant love of God. (Plus a sneak peek into Season 4 of Love is Stronger Than Fear!) TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES: “If we just tackle these problems [of division] with policies, if we just tackle them with to-do steps and practices, we’re going to scratch the surface. But if we

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loving our enemies

S3 E19 | Loving Our Enemies in a Nation Divided with David Bailey

The presidential election does not change the church’s assignment. David Bailey, the executive director of Arrabon, talks with Amy Julia about the practices of reconciling communities, the divisions that result from misplaced hope in political power, and the foretaste of God’s kingdom that comes through loving our enemies. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES: David Bailey is the executive director of Arrabon, a ministry that helps churches become reconciling communities. Arrabon also includes Urban Doxology, which is a ministry that writes the soundtrack of reconciliation in the racially diverse and gentrifying neighborhood of Church Hill, Richmond, VA. Connect online: Websites:; Instagram: @davidmbailey; @wearearrabon; @urbandoxology Facebook: @thedavidmbailey; @wearearrabon; @urbandoxology Twitter: @davidmbailey; @wearearrabon; @UrbanDoxology

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politics, power, and privilege

S3 E18 | American Politics, Power, and Human Flourishing with Andy Crouch

As Americans vote in the 2020 national and local elections, is there hope for power, politics, and privilege to foster human flourishing? Andy Crouch, the author of Strong and Weak, talks with Amy Julia about the paradox of authority and vulnerability, how political leaders can use power and risk for the good of humanity, the distinction between blessing and privilege, and pragmatic ways to contribute to human flourishing. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES Andy Crouch is partner for theology and culture at Praxis, an organization that works as a creative engine for redemptive entrepreneurship. His two most recent books—2017’s The Tech-Wise Family: Everyday Steps

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church and public education reform

S3 E17 | How the Church Can Support School Reform with Nicole Baker Fulgham

Do we, as a society, truly think that every child can succeed in school? Nicole Baker Fulgham, president and founder of The Expectations Project, talks with Amy Julia about the societal expectations for children in schools, the inequity within public education, and how to mobilize the church to work towards education reform. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES: Nicole Baker Fulgham (PhD, UCLA) is the president and founder of The Expectations Project and author of Educating All God’s Children and Schools in Crisis.  Follow Nicole: Twitter: @nicolebfulgham Connect with The Expectations Project:  Website: Resources for advocacy and service Facebook: @TheExpectationsProject Instagram: @hopeforstudents

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what is normal through lens of down syndrome

S3 E16 | Normie: What is Normal Through the Lens of Down Syndrome with Annemarie Carrigan and Kurt Neale

What is normal? Normie is a coming-of-age film about a young woman with Down syndrome. Today, Annemarie Carrigan, the lead cast member of Normie, and Kurt Neale, the director and producer of the film, talk with Amy Julia about the illusions and reality of “normal,” the truth that all humans are broken and beloved, and how the creation of Normie changed how they viewed themselves and others. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES: Stream Normie from October 20-31, 2020: On my website, subscribe to receive monthly updates. You’ll receive an email with a link to watch Normie through Vimeo-on-Demand. (Be sure to check

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disability and the built world

S3 E15 | Who Belongs? Disability and the Built World with Sara Hendren

How does “the built world”—the chairs, rooms, and streets that guide our bodies every day— implicitly ascribe worth to human beings? How does the built world welcome or exclude individuals in public space? Sara Hendren, author of “What Can A Body Do? How We Meet the Built World,” talks with Amy Julia about disability and the built world, how disability is fundamental to our common humanity, and reimagining the built world in a way that gives dignity and worth to all human beings. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES Sara Hendren is an artist, design researcher, professor at Olin College of Engineering, and

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mortal life and hope

S3 E14 | The Astonishing Hope of a Mortal Life with J. Todd Billings

Mortality is often connected to fear, so how does embracing a mortal life provide hope to individuals and communities? Professor Todd Billings, author of “The End of the Christian Life: How Embracing Our Mortality Frees Us to Truly Live,” talks with Amy Julia about lamenting and embracing mortality, the potential for mortality to exacerbate divisions or create connections, and how the presence of God brings freedom from our slavery to the fear of death. TRANSCRIPT Show Notes Dr. J. Todd Billings is a professor at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, MI. An ordained minister in the Reformed Church in America,

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what is privilege

S3 Bonus | What Is Privilege?

What is privilege? What is it not? How does privilege cause harm? In this bonus episode, Amy Julia describes her working definition of privilege, the ways that privilege leads to unjust social divisions and disparities, and how we can participate in healing from the harm of privilege. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES: “Privilege is a set of unearned social advantages that lead to unjust social divisions and disparities.” “Privilege is not a guarantee of an easy life and it’s not an accusation of an easy life.” “As unearned social advantages lead to unjust social divisions, we find ourselves participating in injustice.” “Privilege

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S3 E13 | Privilege, Wealth, and the Christ-Shaped Life with Paul Miller

How does the pattern of Jesus’ life reshape privilege, wealth, and community? Paul Miller, author of “J-Curve: Dying and Rising with Jesus in Everyday Life,” talks with Amy Julia about the J-curve and how this daily dying and rising with Christ can create communities where the potential divisions of wealth and privilege are reshaped by love. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES Paul Miller is Executive Director of seeJesus, a global discipleship mission, which he founded in 1999 to help Christians and non-Christians alike “see Jesus.” His books include “J-Curve” and the instant bestseller “A Praying Life.” Follow him on Twitter at @_paulemiller. “The normal

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Dominique Gilliard criminal justice system

S3 E12 | What Is Unjust About the Criminal Justice System with Dominique Gilliard

What would it mean for the criminal justice system to be unjust? And if it is, what should Christians do about it? Dominique Gilliard, author of “Rethinking Incarceration,” talks with Amy Julia about the history of injustice in the criminal justice system, reimagining justice, punishment, and reconciliation in light of the gospel, and practical ways the church can love people who have been incarcerated. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES: Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). “Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores” won

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Esau McCaulley

S3 E11 | The Black Church’s Gift to Christianity with Esau McCaulley

The Black church has a gift for American Christianity. Are we all willing to receive it? New Testament scholar Esau McCaulley, author of “Reading While Black,” talks with Amy Julia about Black biblical interpretation, distorted views of the gospel, the importance of identity within a Christian’s story, and the Black church’s commitment to both the theological tenets of Christianity and advocating for justice. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES: Esau McCaulley (PhD, St. Andrews), author of “Reading While Black: African American Biblical Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope,” a priest in the Anglican Church in North America, and a contributing writer for The

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Niro Feliciano

S3 E10 | Anxiety, Affluence, and Identity with Niro Feliciano

In an achievement-oriented culture, how do we risk vulnerability in order to move toward personal and racial healing? Cognitive therapist Niro Feliciano talks with Amy Julia about the complexities of privilege, race and identity, affluence and anxiety, and the hurt and the hope found within communities of faith. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES: Niro Feliciano is a certified cognitive therapist and co-founder of a multi-specialty mental health group in Connecticut where she treats anxiety in adults and adolescents. Connect with Niro:, her All Things Life podcast, @niro_feliciano on Instagram, and Niro Feliciano, The Incidental Therapist on Facebook. “Race is a part

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wealth and poverty Marlena Graves

S3 E9 | How Jesus Overcomes the Barrier of Wealth with Marlena Graves

Fear often inhabits both wealth and poverty. How does viewing money and self-sacrifice through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus bring freedom and joy? Writer and speaker Marlena Graves, author of “The Way Up Is Down: Becoming Yourself by Forgetting Yourself,” talks with Amy Julia about wealth, poverty, faith, and the freedom that comes from being filled up with God’s love. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES Marlena Graves received her M.Div. from Northeastern Seminary in Rochester, New York, and is pursuing her Ph.D. in American Culture Studies as she researches the influence American culture has on Evangelicals’ view of immigration, race, and

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education equality equity with Subira Gordon

S3 E8 | Equality, Equity, and Education with Subira Gordon

What is the difference between equality and equity and how does that affect education? Subira Gordan, executive director of ConnCAN, talks with Amy Julia about the lack of equity in education, the effects this has on opportunities for children, the role of antiracism in education, and the questions we can ask to move our communities toward affirming antiracist policies. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES Subira Gordan is the executive director of ConnCAN, an organization that is “leading a movement to improve education outcomes for Connecticut’s kids…to ensure that all kids in The Constitution State have access to a high-quality education, regardless of

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S3 E7 | Conversations About Whiteness with Cara Meredith

How does “color blindness” actually enable blindness to racism and the system of whiteness? Cara Meredith, author of The Color of Life: A Journey Toward Love and Racial Justice, joins Amy Julia to talk about racism in the north, the harm of “color blindness,” the tenants of whiteness, and creating space to process whiteness in a way that’s “not all about me.” TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES Cara Meredith is a writer, speaker, and coach. Connect with her online:, @carameredithwrites on Facebook and Instagram, and @caramac54 on Twitter. “Love helped me see color” “Blindness [to racism] continues to exist.” The celebration

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Jemar Tisby

S3 E6 | Now Is the Time for Justice with Jemar Tisby

How do we find hope, particularly in white American churches, when our history and identity is intertwined with racism? How does knowing who we were—and who we are—help us move toward who we want to become? I talk with historian Jemar Tisby, New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise, about racism’s past and present reality, his sense of a growing darkness, why now is the time for justice, and also where he sees hope. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES Jemar Tisby is a Christian, historian, speaker, a New York Times best-selling author, and co-host of the Pass the Mic

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S3 E5 | Why I Wrote White Picket Fences

When it comes to the enduring legacy of racism, what place is there for forgiveness, humility, and healing? On today’s episode, Amy Julia’s friend Niro Feliciano interviews her about how she came to write White Picket Fences and what she has learned in talking about social divisions over the past few years. {This episode originally aired on Niro’s podcast—All Things Life.} TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES In the interview we mention that White Picket Fences was sold out on Amazon…it is now back in stock! Niro Feliciano is a certified cognitive therapist and is the co-founder of a multi-specialty mental health group—Integrative

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natasha robinson

S3 E4 | Challenging Comfort, Acknowledging Power, and Using Privilege with Natasha Robinson

Natasha Sistrunk Robinson began her career as a United States Marine and later worked in the Department of Homeland Security. She is now an author, speaker, and leader. Today we talk about her most recent book, A Sojourner’s Truth: Choosing Freedom and Courage in a Divided World. We also cover the topic of patriotism, whether or not churches should seek to become multicultural spaces, and how white people can name both the injustices and the goodness within their lives and use it to serve God’s good purposes. We talk about comfort, power, and privilege in connection to racism. TRANSCRIPT SHOW

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S3 Bonus | Talking with Our Kids About Race, Justice, Love, and Privilege

How do we talk with kids about race, justice, and privilege? In this follow up to last week’s interview with Patricia Raybon, Amy Julia interviews her three children. Penny, William, and Marilee all talk about what they’ve learned from books, museums, and the recent protests after the death of George Floyd. TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES As I talk with our kids about race and justice, we begin our conversation by talking about our family’s Civil Rights tour in 2019. Here’s a description of our four-day tour, as well as a recommended itinerary, which includes the Whitney Plantation that Marilee mentions, as

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different stories divide

S3 E3 | Our Different Stories Divide Us with Patricia Raybon

How do white parents talk with their children about race and racism? Why do white evangelical and Black Christians seem so socially and politically divided? How do our different stories divide us? How can we move towards one another in love even when we disagree? Author Patricia Raybon and Amy Julia discuss these questions and more in this conversation about race, books and reading, parenting, and faith. (Also, check back in later this week for a bonus episode where Amy Julia talks with her kids about what they’ve learned from talking about racism and injustice at home.) TRANSCRIPT Show Notes

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S3 E2 | Living into the Really Real with Micha Boyett

How can we talk about race and disability without conflating the two? How can white, able-bodied, neurotypical people enter into this conversation? What is the difference between “white fragility” and being vulnerable? What is the connection between contemplation and activism? How can we live into the “really real”? Amy Julia talks with author, podcaster, and advocate Micha Boyett today about all these questions and more. TRANSCRIPT Show Notes Follow Micha Boyett online: Website: (she used to blog at Mama:Monk) Instagram (features Micha’s writing): @michaboyett Instagram (features life with Micha’s son Ace, who has Down syndrome): @acefaceismyfriend Facebook: @MichaBoyett Twitter:

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waking up to privilege

S3 E1 | Waking Up to Privilege with David Bailey

Race, class, and the kingdom of God all come up in this conversation between Amy Julia and David Bailey, Director of Arrabon, a ministry to help churches become reconciling communities. In this introductory episode for Season 3, David and Amy Julia talk about why white people can feel afraid to enter into conversations about race and privilege, the controversies over Confederate monuments in David’s hometown of Richmond, Virginia, whether this moment of protest and activism will translate into lasting social change, and more. SHOW NOTES  |  TRANSCRIPT This is a podcast for restless sleepers. I’m speaking metaphorically, but I’m thinking

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Season 3 Trailer: White Picket Fences

Are you looking for a safe place to talk about race, class, and social divisions? Do you want to learn more about these topics? Do you want a way to talk with friends and family? Do you want to hear the stories of real people and not just the news and statistics? The death of George Floyd and the subsequent protests that swept across the nation have prompted thousands and thousands of people to ask uncomfortable questions about American history and our current social situation. Thousands are longing for places to think and connect and respond.  If you are one

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