MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

• Arrabon: a spiritual formation ministry that equips Christ-followers to actively and creatively pursue racial healing in their communities. 
• David Bailey previously on the podcast:
  S6 E12 | How to Cultivate Racial Healing
  S3 E1 | Waking Up to Privilege
  S3 E19 | Loving Our Enemies in a Nation Divided
  S5 E4 | What’s So Controversial About Critical Race Theory? 
• President Trump’s Executive Order
• Barbara Newman

CONNECT with David Bailey at @wearearrabon and @davidmbailey on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

MORE: Watch this conversation on YouTube by clicking here. 

ABOUT:

David M. Bailey is a public theologian, culturemaker, and catalyst focused on cultivating reconciling communities. David is the Founder and CEO of Arrabon, a spiritual formation ministry that equips the American Church to actively and creatively pursue racial healing in their communities. He is the co-author of the study series, A People, A Place, and A Just Society. David is an ordained minister rooted at East End Covenant Fellowship, serving on the preaching team, and his greatest honor is to be married to his wonderful wife, Joy.

Note: This transcript is autogenerated using speech recognition software and does contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

Amy Julia (00:05)
I’m Amy Julia Becker, and this is Reimagining the Good Life. This is not a podcast about politics. I’m going to work hard to make sure it doesn’t become a podcast about politics, as I’ve already said, it is a podcast about reimagining the good life. And every week I say that we are here on Reimagining the Good Life to challenge assumptions about what makes life good, proclaim the inherent belovedness of every human being, and envision a world of belonging.

where everyone matters. So when politicians say or do things that undermine the inherent belovedness and belonging of everyone in our society, or when they challenge the idea that everyone matters, I want to talk about it. So this also, so it’s not a podcast about politics, it’s also not a podcast about current events, but the events of recent weeks.

both President Trump’s executive orders related to diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility, DEIA, and his comments in the wake of the tragic and fatal plane crash in Washington, DC a few weeks back. These events prompted me to want to talk with David Bailey, who is a longtime friend of mine and of this podcast. David Bailey is the founder and CEO of Erebon, which is a spiritual formation ministry that equips the American church to

actively and creatively pursue racial healing in their communities. Aribon.com, A-R-R-A-B-O-N, Aribon.com, we’ll link to it in the show notes. It’s a wonderful website with resources where you can learn more about the work they do. Soon, you will also be able to find a Lenten devotional there that guides you through complex emotions. I’ve always been grateful for all of Aribon’s resources.

David and I had a great conversation about all sorts of things that included some of the history and analysis of these recent executive orders, but that also included what it looks like to be faithful followers of Jesus. And if you’re not a follower of Jesus, but you’re listening to this podcast, I do think that Jesus is someone who helps us to reimagine the good life. So hopefully you will still be interested in the way people here and now are seeking to

follow after Jesus in these uncertain political times. So, about to get to that conversation with one caveat, both David and I talk to each other with throat lozenges and Kleenex on hand. So you might notice the stuffiness in our noses as we talk. One way or another, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. I’m here.

David Bailey (02:45)
you

Amy Julia (02:48)
with my friend David Bailey. And David, I’m so glad that you are here today. Thank you so much for joining me.

David Bailey (02:54)
Glad to be here. Glad we were able to process together during these really peculiar and heartbreaking times.

Amy Julia (03:01)
Yeah. So you reached out to me and I’m so glad you did because we are in this new administration under president Trump and we’ve had some conversations before about a lot of different issues and topics related to justice and diversity and inclusion and the church faith. You reached out specifically and said, you know, president Trump has made some sweeping changes and orders related to DEI.

which many people are familiar with that acronym, but I’ll just spell it out, diversity, equity, and inclusion. There’s actually another letter that sometimes gets added to DEI, DEIA, which includes the word accessibility. So these are all like initiatives within the federal government that have to do with race, with ability, with gender, with all sorts of different kind of identity issues. And I wondered if we could just start, I wanna talk specifically about what DEIA is, we’ll do that in a minute.

But could you start just by introducing yourself and your own work in the DEI space?

David Bailey (04:05)
Yeah, so I lead a ministry called Arrabon We actually aren’t really in the DEI space. What we are is we’re a spiritual formation ministry that equips Christ followers to actively and creatively pursue racial healing in their communities. And I think that’s a very different tell-off than just like diversity for diversity sake, equity for equity sake, or inclusion for inclusion sake.

I think the word Erebon means a foretaste of things to come. And so what we are trying to do is really help the body of Christ be a foretaste of the kingdom of God. And so that includes the work of reconciliation, that includes the work of justice, that includes the work of repair. And so when we look at what God has articulated in the book of Revelation of heaven, like there is a…

a heart for every tribe, every tongue, every language, the healing of the nations. It’s a very inclusive space for all of everybody who wants to participate in God’s kingdom.

Amy Julia (05:08)
So let’s talk about what does any of that have to do with DEI and these recent executive orders that have to do with really dismantling the federal programs related to diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility. So I guess we should probably define those terms a little bit and then talk about why it’s come up in such a kind of forceful way right now.

David Bailey (05:34)
Yeah, so I mean, there are political definitions and there are like definitions that the people who created it define them. you know, diversity includes like different types of people. Equity is this idea that everybody doesn’t necessarily start in the same place. Yeah. But what we do is we try to give everybody the equal opportunity. For example, you and I are different heights. And so if we need to like look over at things that you can’t see through,

Yeah. Like if I’m 5’10”, so if the height is 5’5″, let’s say, you know, I’m not questioning what your height is, like… Sorry, you’re a lot taller than I am. All right. So if it’s 5’5″, I could see the baseball game. Right. And if we’re just like, everybody gets the same exact thing, then I basically get a to watch a baseball game and you don’t.

Amy Julia (06:13)
one don’t you

David Bailey (06:31)
What equity is trying to do is that if you want to watch the baseball game, you don’t have to watch the baseball game. But if you want to watch the baseball game, let’s just get a step ladder. So you choose to watch the baseball game. can. And that’s what equity in non-partisan ways has meant in any kind of reading that you would read. inclusion, it’s just like, how do we create a space to make sure that everybody could participate? If you keep on showing up to the baseball game.

And you hear that baseball’s awesome. You want to engage in baseball, but you don’t get a chance to like actually see what it looks like. Yeah. Then you just stop coming to the baseball field and you go find something else to do. And at some point you got to be like, how come nobody shorter than 5’10 is not here? Yeah. And we can, we start to ask some questions and it’s okay to inquire around that. And then, and this is where I kind of reached out to you because I saw DEI.

diversity, equity, inclusion was being canceled and demonized. But then it also said, A, and that was accessibility. Of which that is really profound. The language in the executive order, one, calling it radical, two, it got referred to as illegal. And so even like making things accessible to people with

Amy Julia (07:33)
Yeah.

David Bailey (07:56)
disabilities is now called illegal DEIA, according to the federal government. And the challenge of this is that for most of us who are able-bodied, the likelihood that somebody will have a disability is pretty high at some point in their life. It’s very, very high. And so some of us are born with disabilities and others get to an age or something happens in our life where we become disabled. And now to learn about this and to

intentionally engage and work to be accessible to people is now being demonized by the government as being illegal.

Amy Julia (08:35)
Right, and there’s so many problematic implications there. I was actually just at a workshop talking with some parents who had just moved from DC to New Jersey, and they have an autistic son who’s in his 40s, and he worked in a mail room in a federal government building for 20 years. And they said it was great. He was really good at his job. But it was because they had actually a commitment to employing disabled people and having jobs for which he

He was competent. He did a good job. It was not a kind of mark of pity, but it was also a real commitment to actually making it both inclusive, diverse, equitable and accessible that allowed for him to work. And they’ve had a really hard time in moving to New Jersey, finding anyone else who’s actually willing to consider him for a similar type position. And that’s one example, but it’s one among what I imagine right now are going to amount to.

hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of people who suddenly are finding themselves either their competency in their jobs being questioned because of whether it’s the color of their skin or their gender or their perceived ability or where things like if you say, yeah, no longer do we need a ramp. If you are in a wheelchair, tough luck, you just can’t get into the building or you can’t use the bathroom.

Or I mean, there are other kind of structures that make a workplace in this case, but obviously this is true of our public spaces as well, accessible, that I as an able-bodied person right now, temporarily able-bodied person, don’t have to think about. But if I were using a wheelchair, there are places I would not be able to go and that could include my workplace, especially if the federal government says, you don’t have to think about that anymore.

David Bailey (10:29)
Yeah, totally. And there’s this kind of concept that I learned from a lady named Barbara Newman, who I’ve been on a significant journey with between you and Barbara. I’ve learned a ton about how to think about folks with different abilities. And I got introduced to her. It’s called universal design. Yeah. It’s like when you start to have buildings with multiple levels. Yeah. Of course you can have stairs, but everybody doesn’t get a chance to walk upstairs. And so the federal government said, hey, we need to have elevators.

so that there could be accessibilities to people. You need to kind of figure out some ways to create some safe ways for people who can’t go up steps, can make a way to be able to go up the steps. And so that’s called universal design. And so you have to think about people before they actually come in. And part of what Barbara’s life work was in was helping churches to actually think about this for people in worship and communities.

There’s so many families with disabilities and they just can’t even worship because folks have not thought about people that have these particular situations. Everybody is a US citizen. So there should be some baseline just from a civic standpoint that I think as US citizens we should have. But even more so, I just believe the standard for the people of God is even higher than even a fundamental civic rights, a civil rights. And so we need to be thinking about this as the people of God.

Amy Julia (11:55)
So here’s a statement that during President Trump’s inaugural address he said we will forge a society that is colorblind and merit-based and I wanted to talk with you about both of those terms So maybe starting with the idea of a colorblind society Where does that come from? Why that mate? Why might that sound like a great idea? Why might that be problematic? Like could you just speak to the idea of colorblind and we’ll get to merit-based in a minute

David Bailey (12:24)
One thing I think is really important to understand is that we live in a time where people oftentimes that make claims of this nature want to be ahistorical. Why are we going back in the past? like, why can’t we just go for like, why would go history? Let’s kind of get over it. At the same time, want to say, let’s make America great again.

Amy Julia (12:46)
Right, go back to the past.

David Bailey (12:47)
Right. If you want go back to the past, to some space in American history where we were great, let’s try to like, what are you talking about at that time? And who were you talking about at that time? Yeah. And it’s important to understand how do we get here? And so really, it was a legal system that created this idea that added value to white skin and to black skin. And so before we were a country, in response to when

poor white indentured servants teamed up with enslaved Africans. They said, hey, there are a few rich land-owning men, white men, and there are more of us by numbers. If we team up, we can beat them. And so there was this thing called Bakers Rebellion in Virginia. They almost won, but then they finally lost. And the folks who owned land

implemented the golden rule. Basically, he with the goal made the rules. They made a rule that said, at this point, people with white skin can no longer be slaves. They can be quote, quote, Christian servants, but it’s illegal for them to be slaves. And those with black skin, we assume that they are slaves. So at that very moment,

It created an opportunity where white skin was privileged legally. And it didn’t change the economic status of poor white people. It just changed their mentality about what it meant to have white skin. It gave somebody who they could look above and somebody they could look down on. And it put a non-citizen status on black people. And this was even before citizenship. This is like colonial times. But this got grandfathered in during the time of citizenship.

folks who were white men that owned land for at least two years could then at that point become a citizen. Your ability to become a citizen was connected to white skin. so white skin gave you accessibility to full ability to move freely and take up the benefits of American society. And this was all the way up until…

you know, 1968, but then the laws were actually were enforced until the mid 1970s. There was a misdirection of reverse racism that is happening when somebody says, hey, because of the ways that our laws have worked for centuries, that if we allow some accessibility,

and really try to be intentional to create equal opportunity for people who have come from historically marginalized communities, then that is reverse racism. I mean, like any type of sin, I’m sure that there are cases, there are going to be cases where people have engaged in racism against white people. But universally across the board, it’s not a blanket statement of reverse racism when you include.

intentionality when it comes to trying to create places of equal opportunity for folks of historically marginalized communities.

Amy Julia (16:20)
So let’s talk about what that looks like. Like, you you gave the example of, you know, trying to look over the wall and how I physically just can’t do that unless I’m given a step stool. Doesn’t mean I’m not capable of seeing or even of wanting to see, but it just is like, I can’t do it unless I’m given that way to stand up. And I think one of the times when people talk about reverse racism is if we seem to be

unjustly as a policy, advantaging certain groups of people over others. And I think what you and I would say, I think, is like, well, historically, the advantage has been literally written into the law in such a way that particularly white men have been advantaged. And even more so if you are a wealthy or have some sort of economic, you know, high status as a man, white man.

with white women probably being kind of next in line. And then there are all sorts of other people who we’re talking about, whether that has to do with, again, race, gender ability, who have been historically disadvantaged. But so what does it look like to give like kind of a just advantage to one group in this space? I don’t know. Can you speak to that a little bit?

David Bailey (17:45)
Let me read the executive order. The one that Trump did this last week was called ending radical, wasteful government, DEI programs and. So in section one, says purpose, purpose and policy. says the Biden administration forced illegal and immoral discrimination programs going by the name diversity, equity and inclusion and to virtually all aspects of the federal government. There’s just blanket.

statement that’s not based on any kind of facts or reality that says they enforce an illegal and immoral discrimination program. in continuous of these plans demonstrated immense public waste and shameful discrimination that ends today. Americans deserve a government that is serving every person with equal dignity and respect and to expend precious taxpayer resources.

only on making America great. So like, what does that mean? Right? Like, right. Is it a public waste to think about diversity, equity, inclusion and DEIA like accessibility?

Amy Julia (18:55)
Well, that kind of gets back to the idea of a merit-based, right? Like a forger society that’s colorblind and merit-based. This podcast is called Reimagining the Good Life. And one of the things that for me has been a reimagining of the good life is a recognition of how much, I mean, honestly, from a purely self-centered perspective, how much my life is enriched when I am actually encountering people.

who are diverse in not only their abilities and intellect and background and economic status, right? Like that’s actually really good for me because of what I learn and the ways I grow. Hopefully it’s also beneficial in a mutual way because we’re actually coming into relationship together. And I think about that on a social level that like you could have a vision of society, right? Like a vision of society that says this is actually a good thing. You can certainly talk about it as something that would be just.

Right? Like that would be right and dignified for our citizens. But also you could say like, it’s actually a commonly good thing for us to encounter one another and want to create diverse spaces in workplace and, and other, other ways. Obviously there’s an argument, I guess, against that as well. What do you hear when you hear merit based society?

David Bailey (20:17)
I mean, I think there’s, I mean, there’s a few things. mean, it’s a mythology. mean, if we’re 100 % honest, the person writing the executive order has not done anything about merit-based. mean, literally was given millions of dollars, ended up going bankrupt multiple times on a gambling business. And then, you you think about all of his kids that were in the office, right? I mean, it’s a whole family that is in…

the place that they’re in because of the fact of who their daddy is, who his daddy was, who their daddy was. We don’t even live in a merit-based society, right? Like that’s just not a very true thing, right? But then also I just think as a people of God, are we people of merit or people of grace, you know? Like I even think that there’s an American mythology of pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.

of which it’s important to remember the person who came up with that statement was Booker T. Washington, who was a formerly enslaved man himself that was talking to folks who were disenfranchised and was saying, hey, we can’t rely on white people to do the right thing. So we have to pull ourselves up our own bootstraps. when for a white person to say that means has a whole different meaning, particularly

when you’re one who’s been given everything through your dad and then you give everything your kids through the, you know, as, to your kids and to have this mythology of merit base, you know, and I, it’s, really interesting. think like in Galatians, there’s just talk about like how we need to bear one of those burdens, but then also at the same time, also, like kind of pay attention that we, we try to carry our own weight. Like you see,

Amy Julia (22:11)
Yeah.

David Bailey (22:11)
This reciprocity, this interdependence, not independence, but it’s interdependence that we have as being a part of a family. And I think that’s something that’s really, really key that again, as kingdom people, meritocracy is a mythology. That’s just not the way that the world works. Like in a broken fallen world, that’s just not the way the world works. Let’s not pretend like that’s how it is. But then when you’re actually kingdom people, because that we know the world doesn’t work that way, we’re folks that

try to live an interdependent life where we try to bear one another’s burdens, but then also to much given, much more is required. And we try to kick in a little bit of extra for those who have less than what we have. mean, that’s Bible all the way from Genesis to Revelation.

Amy Julia (22:58)
Well, and think there’s also something it’s like I’ve been trying to think of a word because you meritocracy kind of comes on the heels of aristocracy right saying we’re not a society I mean even though meritocracy in our society does get handed down in this kind of aristocratic way as you described where it’s like the family I’m born into and the networks of connections I’m born into are what really matter

in terms of my ability to whether it’s like get into a school or get a job or get a promotion, you know, all of those things. But I’ve been trying to think about like, okay, even a pure quote unquote meritocracy that wouldn’t have to do with that type of handing it on. First of all, it would have to, you’d have to have kind of an arbitrary idea of what it means to have worked hard enough.

and to be deserving of whatever these things are, right? And like different people might actually say, well, this is what it means to have done a really good job, or this is what it means to have worked hard. Second of all, you will have had to have a certain level of just ability and opportunity in order for that to happen. But third of all, it still operates in this hierarchy in which some people deserve to be up and others deserve to be down. And even people who are talking about a meritocracy that does not kind of

discriminate based on race or ability or whatever is still assuming that some people deserve to be up and others down. And I really think the way of the kingdom is the way of everyone being lifted up, like there being an actual mutual dignity and mutuality and reciprocity that is really, really different than how human societies are going to operate otherwise. Because even the description you gave of like the, white Christian servants where it’s like, yeah, they economically.

had the same status as the enslaved black people. And yet, because their social status was different, that actually mattered more than the economic status. And I think our social status matters so much to us. And I think Jesus is talking about it all the time as something that he’s like, no, no, no, And it’s not, yes, there’s a degree of kind of humbling the proud that I think we read about in scripture.

but I don’t think that’s for the sake of them being trampled upon. It’s so that everyone can be lifted up and we can all understand our kind of mutual dependence upon God and interdependence upon one another and our mutual kind of possibility or being endowed with the image of God and the responsibility of being a part of God’s work in the world. So.

there’s just kind of a whole different way of seeing things as Christians. And I’m not always sure how that should work itself out in terms of government policy. But I know that it’s not by setting up even more arbitrary social hierarchies. know that much.

David Bailey (25:59)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, and this is the thing, like for me, I feel like as the people of God, I mean, we’re very fortunate for as long as the American experiment will last to be able to have some say so in our government. But it’s really important for us to understand that most of the time for the people of God throughout all scripture.

They were none of the time they were in a democracy by any means. Yeah, yeah, they were in situations and even there was a short period of time where they were in charge of their own government. And even there, they still messed it up. Right. It was only three kings, where, you know, they were in charge of their own space before they started to engage into their own form of oppression, and start taking on the ways of the empire. most of the time, they were in the shadow of the empire, right? Right. And so

they had to learn how to be faithful as the people of God in a context where they could not influence the government. And so a lot of what I’m really trying to help us to have some imagination around is, man, you know, if there are ways that we can call our Senator or our representative to say, hey, let’s honor the image of God or

Like, we’re not cool with this and let’s put a stop to any number of these things that’s going on that’s problematic right now. Let’s do that. Yeah. But what I’m more concerned about is where the people of God adopt these.

evil and honestly demonic empire ways of thinking. Because the reason why I’m even using the strong language is evil and demonic is because one is dishonoring the image of God. Two, it is like literally having some of the wealthiest people in the world causing an immense amount of pain to the poorest people in the world, whether it’s the USAID funding is changing, whether it’s the

people who have been vetted to be refugees that are here that we promised to be able to settle them, to help them assimilate within American society. And then to say, hey, organizations like Rural Vision can’t continue to help them and Catholic charities can’t continue to help folks. When it’s coming to demonizing folks who are immigrants who may be documented or undocumented. And so there’s this demonizing of folks and this like fear mongering of xenophobia that’s happening.

And as the people of God, we should not be buying into it, adopting that kind of mentality.

Amy Julia (28:41)
Right. want to pull back for a minute because there are certainly people who would say, look, what’s happening right now? It might be an overreaction, but it’s an overreaction to an overreaction because it was woke progressivism that got out of hand over the course of the previous, you know, count your number of years. And this is sure an overcorrection, but a correction was still needed.

Can you like, what do you think about that? what, I do think there are problems on quote unquote, like both sides of this debate. And it’s worth naming those, which doesn’t mean being in support of what’s happening right now. But I just want to kind of bring that into our conversation, the ways in which we have become really polarized as a society when it comes to issues of all of these kinds of identity issues that we’re kind of referencing here.

David Bailey (29:39)
Yeah, I mean, I think that Academy, Black Lives Matter, if we want to say quote, quote woke progressivism, I think that they have filled the gap that the church has left open. 11 a.m. has still been the most segregated hour, right? And it’s not only segregated racially and ethnically, it’s also segregated economically. So even within the same socioeconomic spaces, most of our churches, particularly over the last

since post-World War II prosperity, our churches have become even a lot more socially segregated, economically segregated. When we talk about poor people, that we’re somebody who’s educated and or have options, resources, financially, network-wise, relationally, economically, and we talk about poor people, it’s not folks that we actually usually know. And then when we talk about immigrants, it’s not actually people that we actually know.

Amy Julia (30:34)
Right.

David Bailey (30:38)
people that’s infected by this. When we’re talking about somebody with different racial ethnicity and how this is being impacted, actually people that we actually know. And then for those who might be in ethnically, racially, minorities, or immigrant communities, folks are like, a lot of those people don’t have the choice to engage with folks who are of a different economic or social status.

And so the choice oftentimes is the person who is more economically or socially privileged in this situation. And so this is something that’s really, really important to understand that it’s our mandate when Jesus says, when he’s asked the question, what’s the greatest commandment? And it says to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and straight, and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus gives an illustration where they cross the theological,

ethnic and social taboos of somebody who was beat up on the side of the road. And the good Samaritan didn’t ask about meritocracy. Right. Didn’t ask about immigration status. Didn’t ask about, did you do something to get beat up? Right. the good Samaritan did was went to their pocket and stopped the bleeding to make sure the person was okay, out of danger and said, Hey,

You know, when I come back, if things aren’t squared away, hotel keeper, I’m going to come in, I’m willing to help you. And Jesus is like, that is the example of what it means to love a neighbor. So I don’t, I mean, like, of course there are fair critiques about quote, woke progressivism or whatever term it is because humans are humans and they’re flawed. You know? I mean, I lead a ministry and I’m a leader in a ministry. There are fair critiques about me as a leader.

There’s fair critiques about everybody. I mean, like, we’re not perfect people. like, when somebody who’s not even like a follower of Jesus doesn’t do something quote, quote, right, why am I going to be upset with them? Because of how they’re doing it, particularly when my people, the ones who have been mandated by God to love our neighbors, to love our family, and to love our enemies, aren’t living into that reality.

I think that’s where the major problem is.

Amy Julia (33:03)
So let’s talk about that for a minute. You talked about how the church kind of left a void that progressivism perhaps stepped into. I’ve thought a lot about, think, I don’t know if he coined this phrase, but I think I heard Mark Sayers first talk about the kingdom without a king, kind of the vision that Jesus casts for a society that has so many of these social systems dismantled and yet without the authority and honestly without the grace of Jesus too.

But what opportunity do you see for the church right now? Like what if people of faith, if the people of God were to step forward or step into what’s happening right now in a faithful way? Like what might that look like?

David Bailey (33:50)
I think a few of it things is that it’s really important for our hearts to be tender to those who are suffering. It’s really fascinating that when God formed the people of God, filling the promise of Abraham that make his people, his family into a great nation at the end of Genesis, when Joseph was at the top of the empire, the greatest influence of Egypt, they were just a big family.

It was an exodus when they were under the foot of the empire, where God made them to a great nation. You see all throughout the Old Testament that God said to Israel, remember that you were once a stranger in a strange land. Remember that you were a foreigner. Remember that you were a vulnerable people. And like have empathy for the foreigner, have empathy for those who are marginalizing your society. And even like it’s really interesting because God

even in the Old Testament under ancient Israel, always created rooms for equity and accessibility and inclusivity for people. Like there was ways for folks who were foreigners to be included into the way and the worship of Yahweh. There was like equity, meaning everybody had to atone for their sins through sacrifice. Some people couldn’t afford lambs and other people could afford doves. And the part reason why we know that Jesus

Amy Julia (35:13)
Yeah.

David Bailey (35:16)
was poor, was because we knew when it came time for them to make the sacrifice that he brought in the poor, the accessibility sacrifice and the equity sacrifice, right? We just got to remember that everybody’s made in the image of God. And I think part of the strategy that the political power of our time right now is trying to do is trying to flood the system.

Amy Julia (35:27)
Right, right.

Yeah.

David Bailey (35:46)
with so much fear, so much demonization of the other, so much dehumanizing of the other, but then also helping us to desensitize to the suffering of so many people. And I think it’s really, really important for us as the people of God to realize it’s not our job to do the job of the empire of Babylon, of the United States. It’s our job to learn how to like,

Pay attention to the suffering of those who bleeding on the side of the road because that’s what Jesus said, means to love our neighbor as ourself.

Amy Julia (36:24)
So I have one final question for you related to that. really appreciate that. I mentioned to you before we got on to hit record that when President Trump made comments about the horrific plane crash into the Potomac a week ago, he implied that it was because of DEI hiring practices and specifically the intellectual abilities of the FAA controllers that the helicopter and the plane.

crash into each other with no evidence to suggest that that was actually the case. So he made these comments that in my mind as the mother of an intellectually disabled young woman were placing blame for a tragedy on a group of people who are really quite vulnerable, whether that’s just vulnerable to not receiving jobs or vulnerable in all sorts of other ways. He also talked about some other ways in which he’s done this, not just about

disability, he’s done this in relation to race and gender as well. But in this case, because he was talking about disability, I found myself feeling kind of personally shaken in a way that I’m often not, where I’m like, I really care about that. And I’m able to have kind of a posture of compassion that comes out of, I guess, a place of like relative security or strength. Whereas in this case, I felt really shaken. And I’m sure that many, many people have felt shaken, like not just kind of like, Ooh, I read this in the news and that seems bad, but just like,

I am feeling this in a visceral way and it feels like I want to just like retreat and run away. Like I’ve literally had friends being like, no, this time I’m really thinking about moving to a different country. Like I don’t. And I guess what I’m asking about here is just what do you think it looks like for us to kind of stay engaged and care for our souls in the midst of perceived threat, real threat, both of those things and, and a sense of kind of.

chaos out there. Yeah, how do we kind of keep a sense of that, what you were describing, like hope and purpose and being a part of a people with compassion, but also taking care of ourselves in a proper way in the midst of all this.

David Bailey (38:36)
As I think about your question, I reflect on this idea that of when Jesus sent out the 12 disciples in Matthew 10, he gave some specific instructions that they make sure they proclaim the message of the kingdom of God, that they bring healing to people, that they raise folks that are dead and dead things, and that they touch the untouchables, that they cleanse folks who are leopards.

And I think the thing that really understand about leprosy, the danger of leprosy is that you get numb and that you can’t feel anymore. And I think that we need to, I think there’s two lessons in that. One, we need to touch the untouchables of our society. But I think also that we need to be healed from the callousness because when we can’t feel pain anymore, we can get into real pain is a sign that there’s something dangerous and we need to be able to sense danger.

But then also drive out the demonic, the things that are evil. And he says, as freely as you receive, freely give. And so that’s a posture that Jesus had them engage in. But then later on in verse 16, he says, I’m sending you as sheep amongst wolves, therefore be wise as serpent and as innocence as dove. And I think this is what’s really important is I can’t remember who I heard this from.

Amy Julia (39:58)
Yeah.

David Bailey (40:05)
But we need to engage in critical thinking without having a critical spirit.

Amy Julia (40:10)
Hmm.

David Bailey (40:12)
And so when you hear a president at an address say, literally, we have not done an investigation yet, but I know what happened is DEI. Why? Because I got common sense and I just think it is. And so it’s important for us to see that for what that is. But then to also just have some of the discernment, the wise discernment.

Amy Julia (40:30)
Right.

David Bailey (40:41)
to realize that brother’s trying to distract for something. What’s going on there? mean, that was a question you should look to see what’s happening. But even more so kind of going back to the whole thing about the numbness, man, it should be about those 67 souls that died tragically and all of those families and friends and the communities that they’re attached to. And that is a tragic situation that now has been used as a political football.

Amy Julia (40:45)
Yeah.

Right.

Right.

David Bailey (41:11)
And then the wisdom of what you’re saying of understanding how demonizing somebody with intellectual disabilities to put them at fault, something had nothing to do with whatsoever.

And so these are the things that are, you we have to be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove and realize that we are being sent out, like there’s wolves on monk’s sheep, you know, and we really have to be people who can think critically without having a critical spirit. So when it comes to how do we care for our souls, for me, I am really trying to one,

Amy Julia (41:48)
Yeah.

David Bailey (41:56)
Fast from the onslaught of media and foolishness. mean, part of the strategy in it, they’ve said this, it’s part of like flooding the system with a bunch of crap. And it’s just like, you’re just trying to flood the system. So they’re trying to overwhelm us with the system. So I think fasting is a really important thing for media. And for me, I try to read things, like I’ll hear about it and just try to like read some stuff, you know, instead of like listening to

Social media YouTube TV the screens because that’s forming us in a way. Yeah I’m trying to feast on God’s Word. I’m trying to spend time a prayer particularly I’m trying to monitor my soul to since like when I’m I deal with anxiety and Fear because I think that that’s that’s the plan to get us Fearful and anxious to either do like like the first strategy was to give us fearful and anxious enough to Now the thing is to try to get us fearful and anxious enough to be

Amy Julia (42:30)
Yep.

David Bailey (42:55)
afraid of the other. And if we aren’t planning to be afraid of the other and the person that they’re demonizing, then they want us to be just overwhelmed to the point that we are numb and can’t like see or feel anything anymore. And so I’m trying to fast from that feast on God’s word, but then also fill my soul with things of joy and things of like what’s over good, pure holy.

I’m just reminded of that, that, the text of Philippians, you know, the think on these things. And so I think that that’s a way that we can continue to be people of hope and people of the resurrection and, see evil for what it is. Discern what it is that God wants us to do with an our sphere of influence. Choose that thing to be faithful in. Cause I mean, we’re talking, this is like two weeks in, so we got at least four years that we really need to be prepared for.

Yeah. we, I mean, we can’t get weary and doing well. We have to be folks that endure to the end.

Amy Julia (44:05)
I love fast feast and fill ourselves with good things and those eternal things that are good not just for us but for those around us and to stay steadfast in that. So David, thank you as always just for sharing some of your thoughts and your wisdom and your faithful perspective on all of this. I’m really glad we got to talk here today.

David Bailey (44:30)
Thanks for the invitation.

Amy Julia (44:32)
you

Thanks as always for listening to this episode of Reimagining the Good Life. I wanted to let you know we have some exciting upcoming interviews. get to talk with New York Times columnist Ross Douthat, bestselling author Pico Eyer, and another friend and favorite of this podcast and one of my favorite authors and speakers, Andy Crouch. I have one more announcement in addition to urging you to look up the Arrabon website and their Lenten devotional.

I also have two different guides through the season of Lent, and you can find those at amyjuliabecker.com if you click on the resources tab. Please know you can always send questions or suggestions my way. My email is amyjuliabeckerwriter at gmail.com. I’d love to hear who you would like to hear on this podcast. Please share this conversation with others. Again, I think that David’s insights are so helpful and grounding in a time like this.

And please do take one minute to rate or review this podcast so that more people will know that it’s out there. I want to thank Jake Hansen for editing this podcast. I want to thank Amber Beery, my social media coordinator. She does everything behind the scenes to make sure it happens. And she is just a wise voice of counsel in making decisions about who to speak to and how to really produce really high quality content.

for all of you who are listening. And to that end, I hope this conversation helps all of us to challenge assumptions, proclaim belovedness, and envision a world of belonging where everyone matters. Let’s reimagine the good life together.