Note: This transcript is autogenerated and does contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
Amy Julia Becker: 00:06
Do you and your spouse ever have conversations that end in silence, defensiveness, or words that you wish you could take back? I’m here today with Katie and Steve Gody. They are going to help me unpack communication patterns that can undermine a marriage, and they’re here to offer practical ways for parents like us, parents of children with disabilities, so that we can communicate with greater honesty, kindness, and self-control. I’m Amy Julia Becker, and this is Take the Next Step, a podcast for families experiencing disability. We’re part of the Hope Heals Network, bringing you weekly encouragement and practical next steps to help your family thrive. Your family matters, your child matters, and we need you among us. Before I give you Katie and Steve’s bio, I do want to say I know that not everyone listening to this podcast is married. And yet everyone who’s listening is affected by disability in your family. And we are all communicating with other family members in the context of our families affected by disability. And I do think that although we are talking specifically about married couples today, this episode should be helpful to anyone who wants to go from these more stressful patterns of communication into communication that involves clarity, kindness, and self-control. All right, here’s the bio. Katie Gohde is a licensed professional counselor who works with couples and families. Steve, her husband, spent 15 years in corporate America before starting his own firm. And together they lead workshops on marriage, communication, conflict boundaries, and what it takes to build strong families. They’ve been married for 21 years and they live in Atlanta with their two children and a growing collection of pets. And here is my conversation with Katie and Steve. Well, today I have a special treat because I’m here not with one person, but with two. I’m here with my friends, uh Katie and Steve Gohde, and I’m so grateful that you both were able to be here with us today. Thank you. Of course.
Steve Gohde: 02:09
Happy to be here. I’m just happy to be called the special treat. Oh, yes.
Amy Julia Becker: 02:15
Well, we like so many of actually my guests here on Take the Next Step, um, met first at Hope Heel’s camp where we got to serve as volunteers alongside each other. And the two of you offered a kind of a special workshop session for um families, for parents, for married couples in particular, um, because you were able to really share with all sorts of things, including how to communicate in marriage. And you were thinking in the context of Hope Heel’s camp specifically about families affected by disability, which might, you know, we have all the same issues that anyone who’s married has as far as communication, and sometimes just the additional pressures that come from being parents of children with disabilities. So I wanted to start just by asking you, Katie, if you could help us understand why communication is so important in marriage, um, especially in the context of being parents of kids with disabilities.
Katie Gohde: 03:08
Oh gosh, absolutely. Um, even though we are not raising children with disabilities, we have a really soft spot uh for those who are. And we have just loved being part of the Hope Heals family. Um, and I’m I’m a marriage therapist and um have been doing that for about 22 years. One of the things that I’ve noticed, because I do work mostly with um couples in crisis, couples who are under a tremendous amount of stress, sometimes chronic stress, um, like raising children with disabilities where there’s kind of no known finish line to the stress. Um, what I’ve found is honestly the practical stuff is what makes the real impact. I mean, couples want to know what I can apply today that’s accessible and that’s gonna make a difference. And so I really try to focus on that. Um, and uh, you know, research shows that couples, uh, connected couples, they are practicing certain skills, a few skills. And um, and those skills help them to stay close even when life turns up the heat. And so that’s kind of what I thought we’d talk about today is yeah um the skill, the art in, if you will, of of of healthy communication, you know, what works, what doesn’t work, and how we can improve, because we can all improve. So uh that’s that’s why it’s um so important.
Amy Julia Becker: 04:30
And that’s yeah, what we really want to be doing here at Take the Next Step is actually addressing those very practical realities um when we know that our circumstances are not necessarily going to change, and yet we can actually um experience a different reality within our circumstances with some of these tools that we can practice together. So thank you so much for being here to do that. Um, I’ll also mention now for anyone who’s listening that we did have an episode with Monica DiCristina, who’s another mutual friend and um also a partner with Katie in practice. Uh we had a conversation about chronic stress a couple of weeks ago. So if anyone kind of hears about that and wants to know more, that will be in the show notes and is also available. But Steve, I wanted to ask you to just kick it off with some conversation about how most people communicate if we aren’t necessarily practicing what we’ve learned from you here today. What are our what are our default go-to, you know, just the things we might have picked up along the way, ways to communicate?
Steve Gohde: 05:30
Yeah, absolutely. But before we even get into that, one of the things that I want to talk about really quickly is we’re a little bit of a um an experiment in our house. When Katie has these ideas or things that she is bringing home from her practice, she she tries them out on me as a guinea pig first. And if they’re not really easy to implement, I mean like easy enough for me to implement, then they don’t make it back into the real world. And so everything that we’re gonna talk about here, really, I mean, it we apply it in our own lives and and it’s and it’s very simple, easy tactical tools. But but when we talk about communication styles, really we think we’re complex people, but there’s really only four communication styles out there, and and they’re pretty darn consistent. Um passive, aggressive, passive, aggressive and assertive, right? Okay. Um and you know, we like to talk about these communication styles kind of like you’re playing a game of catch. And, you know, when when we were kids, we learned to play a game of catch. When we were kids, we also learned how to communicate. And we brought that forward. And when you play catch, think of that ball that you’re throwing back and forth like the message that you’re trying to send to someone. And you want to be able to send that in a way that a person can receive it. And when you’re doing one of these different communication styles, you’re gonna treat that ball a little bit differently. So the passive communicator.
Amy Julia Becker: 06:57
Yeah.
Steve Gohde: 06:57
What they’re gonna do is they’re gonna take that baseball and rather than sending it over to you in a way that you can receive it, they’re actually gonna take it, walk to the side of the field, put it down, and and hope that you walk past it, you know, and and maybe hope that you pick it up. And hope that you say, Hey, can you wanna play ball? Right? Um, but the reality is most of the time that that doesn’t happen. And sooner or later, that passive communicator, they just get frustrated and resentful and they say, Why doesn’t anybody ever want to play with me? Right. Um the aggressive communicator. Uh shocker, that is my default.
Katie Gohde: 07:39
Are you surprised with this looming voice? Yeah.
Steve Gohde: 07:43
Um we we tend to care more about getting the message across than whether or not the message gets received.
Amy Julia Becker: 07:53
Okay. Okay.
Steve Gohde: 07:54
Yeah. And so what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna take that ball and I’m gonna throw it as hard as I possibly can at you. And when it hits, it’s gonna, it’s gonna hurt. Yeah, you know, and I made sure I got that message across.
Amy Julia Becker: 08:06
Right.
Steve Gohde: 08:07
Um, it doesn’t build good relationships. Nobody wants to play ball with somebody that just keeps on pegging them with it, right? Right. Um that that third style, it’s that mixed martial arts of bad communication, passive aggression.
Amy Julia Becker: 08:24
That would be me, by the way. So yeah. Go ahead.
Steve Gohde: 08:27
Me too, me too again. Um you know, they’re the ones that are taking the ball, and they’re gonna sneak up behind you, put it right behind your foot. So when you step backward, you’re gonna trip on it, and you’re gonna find the message, and when you do find it, it’s gonna hurt, you know. Um and and all of those. There’s not a single one of those that’s that’s a constructive way to communicate. Um, but also it’s not a communication style that we’re doing out of animosity. I’m not I’m not communicating in an aggressive manner with Katie. I love her. Like I want, I want to speak in a way that that she can understand that she can hear these messages. But the reality is when I grew up, I only learned one way to play baseball. That was it. That was my default. And so I don’t do it out of animosity, I don’t do it out of anger. I do it, we all do it because that’s our default. That’s what we know. Yeah.
Amy Julia Becker: 09:27
And so do you feel like, I mean, all of us were able to like raise our hands and say, that’s me. At the same time, I know. I mean, I remember when I first started, my husband first started telling me that I was a passive aggressive communicator. And I literally was like, I don’t really know what you’re talking about. Like I it was what I learned. And I didn’t, I I mean, I kind of was like, well, maybe, and he also is started off in the aggressive stance. Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I would like hide under the table, at least in my mind, when he started talking. You know, it was like, I can’t, I can’t receive this exactly what you just described. But neither of us thought of ourselves as being in those postures. So I guess before we get to like what we can do instead, uh, do you have any thoughts on just how we even recognize here’s what I’m doing? Um, and here and then we’ll talk about what another way would be. But at least for me, I needed to recognize that when I was like, so someday do you think you might take out the trash? Was like not actually like a way of saying, hey, you said you would take out the trash. It’s full. Like it’s time, you gotta do it, you know? Right. That was a big one for us for a long time. Anyway, for sure.
Katie Gohde: 10:36
A lot of couples, the trash, the dishes, these are like very common things, the driving. Um, so you know, the thought is not that profound, but what I would say is all of these ineffective styles are typically birthed from a place of emotional dysregulation. So, what I mean by that is we’re triggered by some kind of discomfort or some kind of frustration. And so we’re we’re you’re we’re utilizing what we’ve either been modeled or what we’ve just been in the habit of practicing. So we kind of default to, you know, what we’re the most familiar with when we’re frustrated, triggered, emotionally dysregulated, right?
Amy Julia Becker: 11:11
Okay.
Katie Gohde: 11:12
Um, and so all of us, if you think about it, all of us are capable. We’re gonna talk about the assertive style in a minute. All of us are capable of communicating in a healthy way at times, or we’d never have friends, lose our jobs. You know, we’re we’re capable, but when we’re emotionally triggered, we’re less able to access that decision making, that like, you know, self-control. Now we can, again, we can practice it, but it’s really, you know, my silly answer to your very simple question is when we’re emotionally dysregulated, this is why we do these things, because we’re the most used to practicing these things.
Amy Julia Becker: 11:45
But so also, like in the context of this conversation, if we are in a home environment that does experience chronic stress, this is probably an even more important conversation, but also an even more challenging one to start practicing. Again, it’s like we need it more. Yes, and maybe we are gonna have a hard time, harder time accessing it.
Katie Gohde: 12:08
Absolutely. Um, and I have a lot of compassion for that. Yeah. I mean, is it a little easier to practice if there’s not a fire going on? Absolutely. Can we still do it? I really believe so. Um, and I’ve seen it in so many of my couples. So, really, you know, the so the style, the real style, the only effective style is is assertive. And I think there’s a lot of misunderstandings about that word. Actually, sometimes I think people uh misconstrue assertive with aggressive.
Amy Julia Becker: 12:33
I totally, when you first said it, I was like, wait, there’s a difference. And then I started thinking, and I’m like, oh, I’m there is, but I still think we need to like really spell that out.
Katie Gohde: 12:41
I do think there are misunderstandings about it. And I think some people think the word assertive is uh mean or whatever. And so what I I like to give the definition of assertive uh in in what I’ve seen with couples and what I try to teach them is that assertiveness is simply it’s clear, it’s it’s kind, you know, you’re holding your spouse or the other person in high regard as you’re speaking to them. But it’s again, as I mentioned, it’s emotionally regulated. So it’s we’re in a place where we can choose to hold that person in high regard and we can choose to um uh deliver a clear message. Um, and so, you know, if Steve and I want to have a successful game of catch, we have to be doing this. We have to be practicing this. I have to, you know, throw in a way that he can receive it, you know, their eye contact, clear message, a calm tone. I mean, these are all decisions, micro decisions, um, uh in order for the game to uh to be effective. Um now the good news is, and as you mentioned, Amy Julia, I mean, we’re all kind of aware of what we default to when we’re not in a good spot. But I want to say the good news is there are anecdotes to the ineffective styles that can be practiced. And that phrase practice makes perfect is not a real thing, but practice does make progress. And we can form new neuropathways in our brains based on, you know, that the what path we’re traversing. We’re gonna practice this or we’re gonna default to that. Both impact our brain and how we show up. And so um, yeah, so I I have some some anecdotes to the ineffective styles that I share with clients every week that I think could be helpful. Um, for my aggressive types, I offer a a gut check and then a redirecting prompt. So the gut check, right, for my aggressive types is hey, do you want to be right?
Steve Gohde: 14:32
Yes, I do. Or I absolutely want to be right.
Katie Gohde: 14:36
Or do you want to be in a relationship? Like both.
Steve Gohde: 14:39
More I want to be right. No, you’re kidding.
Katie Gohde: 14:41
But no, the reality is you sometimes you can have both, but often you cannot have both right and relationship. And so if you want to have a relationship, which you do and we do, and I’m sure your listeners and viewers do, then you need to I I think about it like a like be a good coach to yourself and take just a moment to pull yourself to the sidelines. This does not take an hour, it just takes a couple of moments, right? Where we pull ourselves to the sideline and we say, okay, do you want to be right or do you want to be in a relationship? A couple of breaths, just a couple of breaths.
Steve Gohde: 15:14
That stutter step is so important to be aggressive.
Katie Gohde: 15:17
He calls it a stutter step. You know, you can feel when you’re in an aggressive stance, you can feel the heat, you can feel the tension, maybe you clench your jaw.
Amy Julia Becker: 15:24
Yeah.
Katie Gohde: 15:24
You know, there’s lots of body cues to know you’re in not a good spot, right? But so yeah, I mean, just kind of pulling yourself to the side, taking a couple of breaths. And then here’s my redirecting prompt. I just say, what’s the most important thing that you want to be able to get your spouse to understand? The most important thing, you know, that you’re trying to get across. And how can you say it in a way that doesn’t hurt them? I find that nine times out of 10, aggressive types really resonate with this kind of, you know, procedure of pulling themselves to the side. And and and really what happens is as they start to practice condensing their message, what’s the most important thing you’re trying to get across, right? And and how can you say it in a way that is that doesn’t hurt somebody? What they find is lo and behold, their exchanges are getting more productive, they’re being heard, people are responding, it’s working. And so they start to really honestly be able to recognize wow, I don’t need harsh and loud to be effective. So it’s really hopeful. I see a lot of people who just with those gut checks and that redirecting prompt start to practice new ways and change their relationships. Uh, so you don’t need hours and you don’t need a retreat. You know, you just need a little time out. Um, and and that can be helpful. Now, for my passive and passive aggressive styles types, which I am one, um, I also offer a gut check and a redirecting prompt. Um, the gut check is am I being honest? Like, really? Am I really being honest? You know. Um, and I find uh with myself, but also with some of my clients, that when I’m operating in a a more passive or passive aggressive, you know, pattern, I’m uncomfortable. Uh I I would just kind of prefer to just kind of say it, couch it, uh, I’m uncomfortable. That’s not effective. Am I being honest and am I being clear? Now the redirecting prompt is this if I wasn’t trying so hard to avoid the discomfort, if I wasn’t trying to avoid, what do I wish that my spouse could understand or understood or about about what was going on for me? So again, we’re trying to condense our message to be clear. We’re trying to be kind, and kind is not avoidant and kind is not aggressive, you know? And we’re trying to um stay emotionally regulated. And so I again, these things are able to be practiced if we can kind of be that good coach for ourselves, pull ourselves to the sidelines, just take a couple of breaths. We can, we can pivot, we can practice new ways of relating. So those are those anecdotes.
Amy Julia Becker: 18:03
Those are super helpful. I’m also thinking about, you know, the busyness, the kids are around, it’s dinner time, the dishes were supposed to be done. Last night, they’re still sitting in the sink, and I’m just, you know, whether it’s like I’m gonna shout at you because I’m in an aggressive position or I’m going to bang them around in the sink because you didn’t do them and I want you to pick up on that fact, right? Like those are so um, and I have going on in the back of my head, I don’t have time to pause and breathe and redirect because we need to eat. Like, so can you give some like how do you have clear and honest communication when everything feels busy and chaotic? Uh and I and again, I know it’s not gonna be perfect immediately, but like what does practicing look like in that scenario?
Steve Gohde: 18:51
Yeah. Um, so for first off, um, if anything, start with having grace for yourself and for your spouse. Um and you gotta start there because if you don’t have grace for both yourself and your spouse, like it’s just you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna make progress. Um this is real life. There’s hard things that are going on. There, they’re the day’s never gonna go as it’s supposed to. Um, and so there’s always gonna be something that’s that’s there that’s that’s happening. Um the the second thing that I would say is, and this is probably the most important, especially for me as an aggressive communicator. Katie calls it circling back, the circle back. Some sometimes in our talks, we we we talk about watching the films, right? So if you know when you play professional sports, you know after the game is over, you go back and you watch the films and see what went well and what did not go well. And for me, I will find myself at times, especially when we first started practicing this, I mean, I went right back to my default. Just because I learned a concept doesn’t mean I apply it. It doesn’t mean I’m gonna catch it right in the moment. But but then when I take a beat afterwards and I circle back and I go, you know what? I screwed that up. I’m sorry. I I would I I should have done this or I would have liked to have done that.
Katie Gohde: 20:18
The more that you start to recognize it, um, and even if it’s after the fact, which it often is after the fact, often we are not going to get a touchdown in the middle of that chaos. It’s we’re gonna fumble it all over the place. Yeah. But what I’ve found is to your point, couples, most couples will not circle back. They’re like, okay, it’s over, whatever, kind of sweep it under the rug. And that that just causes scarring over time. So it’s the key is not to be successful in the moment. That’s not gonna happen. It’s there’s gonna be fumbles.
Amy Julia Becker: 20:47
Yeah.
Katie Gohde: 20:48
But to circle back is a decision and it it can happen, you know, in a calmer moment later in the evening. But it’s it’s incredibly valuable to just own come back and say, hey, in the kitchen, I really was harsh. And what I wish I had said was this, and what I was really trying to communicate was this. And I’m sorry that I kind of took you out. That is so disarming and it’s actually very bonding, that kind of honesty, humility, and vulnerability. And again, that’s after the fact, but you gotta find a moment, you know. And I I know those moments might be hard, but I would just encourage people to say, yeah, it’s not gonna happen in the chaos, but when there is a little bit of calm, could you commit to circling back in with that humility and that high ownership?
Steve Gohde: 21:30
And I would also say it’s it’s about reps too. It’s not about just like the intense moments and intense situations. Um, it’s also in the smaller moments and you know, the smaller when it’s when it is about the trash cans. And uh, and that’s all it’s about at this moment in time. And and can you practice it in those spaces where you do have a little bit more? By the way, that’s what practice is about when we play sports. That’s when military training, the reason you have military training is so that. You know what to do. The Navy SEALs say you don’t rise to the occasion, you fall to the level of your training. And so, you know, don’t expect that you’re going to walk into this one this intense situation and you’re going to be perfect if you’re not practicing it in the smaller situations. And so the more that you’re getting those reps, the more that you’re practicing that, the more likely you are to be able to apply it in those more intense, chaotic moments. And again, when you fail, because you will, um, circle back. And then it gets, you know, less and less and less. But I it it’s it’ll still continue to happen, but I think it’s a law of averages, and and sooner or later you tick over and you know, it’s more better than it’s not. And yeah, and that’s when it’s really starts to get great.
Amy Julia Becker: 22:47
Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate the analogies. It’s just simple as far as uh the even as someone who’s not a sports person, I understand both the baseball and the football analogy. It’s amazing. Um, so I’m sure that means that everyone listening, whether you played sports as a kid or not, knows what we’re talking about here. But I just when we come to the end of these conversations, what I usually like to do is just kind of note the things that I took away as kind of like the next step that I could try. And then I want you all to add if there’s anything that you either think I’m missing or that you’re just like, oh, and I also want to say so, um, one was just that idea of um a clear message, a calm tone, and eye contact. Um just and honestly, it sounds to me like if I can’t do that, that’s then the indication of like time to pause. Um, and it might mean nothing happens until later, and that’s okay. But like that just to me is very helpful that there’s like a pretty that’s a pretty quick if I can’t speak clearly with kindness and be calm and make and if I can’t make eye contact, like all of those are flags for me that I’m either in an aggressive or passive or passive aggressive um stance. So that’s that was helpful for me. Um also just that idea of taking the pause and asking those questions, whether it’s what’s the most important thing or am I being honest? Similarly, Katie, for me, the question is am I being honest? Because I’m really gonna try to, you know, do this. Um for listeners, I just made a weird serpentine look on the screen.
Katie Gohde: 24:22
That’s what it feels like. That’s what it feels like.
Amy Julia Becker: 24:24
Yeah.
Amy Julia Becker: 24:24
Um, and then finally, the third thing that I really like just heard was the um circling back, you know, that sense of when you get it wrong, that’s not the end of the story. You can always go back and say, and not just say I’m sorry, but also the more we can articulate I wish I’d done it this way or said this thing, and I’m sorry, and I know that this is what just happened. I uh that I know for me as the recipient sometimes of my husband saying that, and hopefully he feels the same way about me, um, it’s really freeing. So um, yeah, so those are that’s what I heard. Is there anything you all want to add as we kind of come to the end of this short but sweet time together?
Steve Gohde: 25:01
You know, I I just for the men that are out there um that are that are listening to this, I think that when we didn’t have that um modeled for us growing up, um, and you know, some of it, you know, I’m making a generalization, but generationally, um, there weren’t a lot of apologies that were thrown out there. Uh, there wasn’t a lot of that circling back that happened. That was something that I had to learn. And I, by the way, I had a phenomenal father. I love my father. He’s a great, great guy. Um, but some of that was not modeled for me. And um this is this is a harder thing to do. And this is this is learned and this is practiced, and it’s worth it. It is absolutely worth it. It is it is a game-changing thing to be able to circle back with your wife and say, I think I messed that one up. I wish I had done that. And the softness that you will bring into the relationship and the the conversation that you will facilitate in that circle back, um, it is worth all of the uncomfortableness you feel on the inside.
Katie Gohde: 26:10
For sure.
Steve Gohde: 26:11
Um and so I just, you know, to all the men out there, I would really encourage you just take it to heart and just try it. Just give it a couple reps and um and and I think you’ll find it it pays off. That’s great. Yeah.
Amy Julia Becker: 26:24
Yeah.
Amy Julia Becker: 26:25
I don’t have anything else to add, but that was a great point. Yeah. Well, thank you both so much just for being here with us. I know that um everyone who listens will be grateful they did.
Katie Gohde: 26:33
Oh it’s an honor. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us.
Amy Julia Becker: 26:40
Thank you for listening. If this episode was helpful, please share it with another parent or caregiver who might need to hear it. I have a couple things I want to mention as we close out. First of all, this is the final episode in this season of Take the Next Step. We do plan to come back with more episodes in the spring. And meanwhile, we would really love to hear from you. What do you need to hear? What would you like me to talk about? What person would you like me to interview? What topics do you want covered? Here at Take the Next Step, we are trying to talk about starting with delight, not deficit, connecting to community, and taking one next step toward a good future. Where do you need encouragement to take the next step? Second thing I want to say is that yes, I am pausing Take the Next Step for a few months, but I’m happy to let you know that new episodes will drop weekly on my other podcast, which is called Reimagining the Good Life. Those episodes will begin coming again on October 28th. This is a different podcast. It’s about reimagining the good life, and that comes through the lens of disability, faith, and culture. Over there, I interview guests in conversations that challenge assumptions about what makes life good, proclaim the inherent belovedness of every human being, and help us envision a world of belonging where everyone matters. All right, and now to really close it out, I will say that Take the Next Step is a resource from the Hope Heals Network, a collective of thought leaders offering honest and hopeful wisdom to help people flourish in the good and hard parts of their stories. To learn more about the work of Hope Heals, visit Hope Heals.com. I want to thank Jake Hansen for editing this episode, and Amber Beery, my director of content, for producing the show, and thank you for being here. I hope you leave this time with encouragement to start with delight, connect a community, and take the next small step toward a good future for your family.
